What happened to books?

[hendo]

I'm a little disgusted reading post about people who want to learn HTML or PHP or web design for that matter and won't take the time to pick up a book or take a decent class at some community college.

Listen, online resources will only get you so far. Granted there are some good online resources like lynda.com but most online stuff is hacked up beyond belief and you could just be developing someone else's bad habits. You really need to understand the principles of what you are doing first, after which you can go to online resources. By that time you will be able to determine what is good and what is bad.

If you are unwillilng to make an investment in yourself how can will you be successful?

[ikabodsbadgirl]

Originally posted by hendo

If you are unwillilng to make an investment in yourself how can will you be successful?

I could was successful taking a homestudy course that taught basic html and css. I now can will be successful in learning more from free online sources.

[hendo]

Originally posted by ikabodsbadgirl
I could was successful taking a homestudy course that taught basic html and css.

You could elborate on why you think you are succesful and what homestudy course you took. I think people out there would be intrested in what resources you used.

Don't get me wrong, some people learn great from the internet but it's like reading wikipedia...not all the information is useful and it will only get you so far.

All I'm saying is...there are libraries out there people - use them! In fact there are actual, real people out there with whom you can ask questions and interact with...go figure. There's no way you can learn all you need to learn from the internet.

[sunfunbill]

I've found that I can only learn what I am using right at the time. I once bought a book about a jeep engine. I took it down all the way to the camshaft, every piece.

Then I put it all back together. 2 weeks later I did not have a clue what to do with any part because I was done with it. The point being if I read a whole book about everything about a subject, I would not remember any of it.

I find learning only what I need to know about what I am currently working on suits me best. I have never taken a course or even read a book about anything to do with any html, php or anything.

Yet I'm great with dreamweaver, know what I need about html, which is very little, and know wordpress great. But that's just me. Your results may vary!

[NookieNotes]

Bill, I'm with you. Although i do know some things very deeply after using them for years, many things I learn temporarily.

I love to read books, but honestly, when it come to HTML, PHP, CSS and the like... I need on-screen, so I can learn and play int eh same medium. I learn by pulling things apart and putting them back together.

I hate looking from a book to the screen and back.

As far as picking up other people's bad habits? Yeah, I have. I have also eventually developed my own style with my own bad habits. No prob.

[man007]

I'm a little disgusted reading post about people who want to learn HTML or PHP or web design for that matter and won't take the time to pick up a book or take a decent class at some community college.

I agree with you, hendo. There are a lot of crappy websites out there. Personally, I did some research on Amazon and Barnes and Noble to find some HTML/XHTML/CSS resources. They have several good ones, so I picked a few used books on these topics that had some great reviews. This seems to have accelerated my learning of web design and I will be making a non-adult site (or a couple) of my personal interests to hone my skills in addition to the adult galleries I will be generating with my ever-growing web design knowledge. Ultimately, all this studying and exercises will most likely allow me to create better web pages and blogs.

My dedication to learning is a very important part of my success. The most successful people are the ones that strive on at the point where most people give up. Thank you for your postings.

-man007

[hendo]

There is one key component that I'm leaving out of my argument which is very important...PRACTICE. In fact when your done practicing...practice some more.

If I could use an anology, I would say web design or development is like golf. You take the average weekend golfer who goes out to the course and plays just well enough that he doesn't embarass himself, but if he practiced more - maybe took some lessons from a PRO, then he would have a better understanding of the game and why he keep slicing the freakin' ball. A pro makes it look so easy because they do the same thing over and over for days on end until their swing is perfected.

I'm not saying everyone will get on the PGA TOUR and make millions but that doesn't mean you can't be a professional. If you practiced coding html everyday, after a while Dreamweaver will seem like a joke. CSS, the same thing. If you keep jerry rigging everything you'll never get it down to where you will actually remember it. This is what we do - some more than others but know that you will get a return on your investment.

[NookieNotes]

Hendo, I find it interesting that you care.

I mean, if something works for you, great. If another person learns a different way, why do you worry?

I got good enough at coding to make a living (real day job) off of it, and almost none of it from books. Yes, I practice, but I did not learn the way you do.

I don't think it's wrong, it's just not my bag.

Neither was traditional school for that matter. I dropped out when I was 15, and finished my education myself, went to college, learned what I wanted and hopped straigth into "doing something," by going into business.

Not the usual way, but it worked for me. What worked for you? NVm, that's a rhetorical question.

If you simply hate poor code, I understand. The CSS on the corporate site I am working on is a load of disorganized crap that i sorely want to entirely rework. Will it get done immediately? No.

Why should I really worry about it, though. It is working for them.

And really, when it comes right down to it... that is my life philosophy: Do what works.

So, why do you care how others learn?

* * This is not a lfame or a rant or whatever someone might take it as in a negative fashion. It's really a curiosity on my part leading me to ask why. That's how *I* learn * *

<grins>

[odysseus]

I think people don't read books because they fear paper cuts...

On a serious note, however, I can relate to being frustrated with people who can't take charge of their own development. Coding ability is just one arena. In anything that requires one to buckle down, study, and then practice the skill, some people just aren't willing to do so. Yet still they expect results or want someone to hold their hand when they fail.

Regarding the quality of books and online resources, I feel there are good and bad of both, and a base level of skill is needed to tell the good from the bad. I like learning from books. But, while I have a PHP book that gets used consistently, I have a javascript book (for beginners) that might make good kindling for a bonfire some day. So when I need to do any javascript stuff, I search the net. Even though I started learning javascript first, I'm more comfortable with PHP partly because of the difference in quality of the books I started learning with. Take 2 books that teach the same thing, and you may well see 2 authors begin in very very different places.

I have considered taking classes to expand my business abilities, but when I come down to prioritizing what skills I need to develop to progress, coding just doesn't make it to the top of the list over things like getting better at copywriting and photoshop. I can't stand messy code, but the truth is that elegant code presenting a crappy sales pitch, is still a crappy sales pitch. Depending on the focus of your project (deploying something for a corporate client versus affiliate marketing) the coding skills may end up being the least relevant skill to have.

I see your point though. One should constantly develop themselves, and books are usually a great way to do that in any endeavor.

[NookieNotes]

Odysseus, your post is thoughtful and well-written. I agree on every point.

I go to the bookstore every week and choose a book to sit down with and take notes that may help me in my business, my personal life, a hobby, etc.

As far as coding, I have found that I have learned best hands-on. Most of the books I find are either too esoteric (for people who want to code, not create specific results) or too simplistic ("hello world"), and I'd rather just find a bunch of scripts and break them down, or, frankly pay someone.

Not to mention that many coding books are out of date by the time they reach the shelves.

It doesn't matter whether I use a book or the web, as long as what I do works for me. I am not a person who sits back and waits for information to come to me, whether I choose a book or not.

I go out, research, delve in, ask questions, and learn in any/every way it feel comfortable.

[sunfunbill]

We all learn differently, you can't say everyone should grab a book and study it then apply it. That's why school does not work, they try to make everyone learn the same way.

I use to read every damn book the first month of school that was for the whole year, then sit there bored to tears the rest of the year. I dropped out at 16 NOT because I was doing bad but because I already knew what they were teaching.

It made no sense to sit there hearing what I already knew. Also there is a lot of crap you don't need to know. I read a lot, still do. But I can't study every detail of a subject and remember it.

Also most of what I do is writing, selling and building. I use almost nothing with css, html or php that programs don't do for you. The little bit I needed to know I did learn. We all do this for money, nothing more. You need to spend your time doing what makes you money.

We never have enough time, at least I don't. So it makes more sense to do what I do best and pay or get a program to do what I don't have time for. Now then, we all do need to know the basics. If you can't be bothered to know the basics then you should do something different.

But I'm not going to learn how to build an engine just to drive a car.

[hendo]

Originally posted by NookieNotes
So, why do you care how others learn?

I don't see a problem trying to help out the next man. Hell, Bill helped me out when I asked a question on another subject (which I am grateful for BTW). However before I came back to Cozy asking questions and wasting everyones time, I did a lot of research before hand so that I could at least have some knowledge of the business. That way I can speak somewhat intelligently about the subject.

I'm like Odysseus - I'm a business man too, my business is the web. The more I know about that the more likely I'll be successful.

Finally, I want to say it is very brave of you guys to put yourselves out there like this. I can respect the fact that you all work hard doing what you do. I'm not gonna sit here and judge people and tell you what is right or wrong. Just offering my opinion and suggestions to people who need them.

[NookieNotes]

Hendo, good explanation. I took your tone and subject as a bit judgmental. That's my bad.

I still think as I re-read there are better ways this could have been brought up as an offer of help.

That said, I don't think anyone who actually answered this thread is the type to sit on their butts and watch things come to them, so you are, in many ways, preaching to the choir. LOL!

[Machiavelli]

No offense Hendo.... but just because it is written in a book does not make the information accurate... that same person who put up a tutorial on HTML, CSS etc. could easily write a book and sell it through Amazon etc..

I've read alot of books on various topics throughout the years where i find false information or inaccurate... so whether you get your information online or from a bookstore does not matter... the Internet is one whole big bookstore to me and usually free which is what i rather have... though i love reading books and have an extensive collection on alot of subjects....

As for coding, you can learn online as well as offline equally imo... you just have to weed out the bad info from the good... and that comes from reviewers like us...

To me a combination of forums, tutorials and books is the best way to learn... people on forums can confirm what you have learned from tutorials and books.... plus you can ask specific questions to things not learned....

[hendo]

I know this topic kinda cooled off but for what it's worth I ran past an interesting article with a lot of good info for us "webmasters".

http://www.wakeuplater.com/website-b...b-workers.aspx

I particularly want to note #7, which is the point I wanted to make when I opened the thread.

Hope this helps people who are looking for good online resources.

Peace