2257 and enforcing

[bluechicken]

I used the search function and read a lot about what was said about 2257 and foreign webmasters on this board but I may have missed something.
I read that it is enough for a foreign webmaster to do business with the US to be subjected to US laws like 2257 and that even hosting in the US is enough in the same aspect.

the answer I didn't find:
How will laws like 2257 be enforced in a foreign country ?

when a foreign webmaster puts up a clear link to a 2257 page on which he claims he holds all records and documents in his office proving every part of human body that appears on his site belongs to someone who is over 18 -
the only way to prove he did not comply to 2257 laws is to do an inspection at his offices.
I understand the FBI/DOJ do not do inspections out of the US. so who will ? how will this law be enforced ?

I may be complete out of direction if the laws apply only to US residents...

[balls_deep]

Originally posted by bluechicken
I understand the FBI/DOJ do not do inspections out of the US. so who will ? how will this law be enforced ?

It won't. If you don't host in the US and you don't live here then like any other US law.. It doesn't pertain to you since you aren't physically in the US.

But if you plan on publishing something illegal here or violate any law for that fact, I wouldn't recommend setting foot on US soil.

[bluechicken]

Originally posted by balls_deep
It won't. If you don't host in the US and you don't live here then like any other US law.. It doesn't pertain to you since you aren't physically in the US.

But if you plan on publishing something illegal here or violate any law for that fact, I wouldn't recommend setting foot on US soil.

no, I do NOT plan to do anything illegal.

anyway, thank you for casting your opinion, never the less what I understood was a different view:
If you host in the U.S. you will need to comply to U.S laws.
If you process in the U.S. you will need to comply to U.S laws.
If you sell memberships to U.S. citizens you will need to comply to U.S laws.
If you do business with U.S parties (as sponsors) you will need to comply to U.S laws.

you are basicaly saying this is all wrong ?

[balls_deep]

no, I am sure that the laws of our country (US) do say exactly that. I was referring to your question about someone knocking on your door asking for 2257 docs in Bumfuck, Egypt. I was simply saying that no officials will visit you outside the US, and if something on your site is in direct violation of our laws then don't set foot on our soil or you risk being arrested and tried under our system. Your initial question seemed more like you were worried about someone knocking on your door for violation of a foreign law. I think i would be more worried about my local laws than another country that i have no ties with.

For example : If my website violates Chinese laws and the punishment for publishing this material is death... I could care less because I will never be in China and I know that no Chinese Officials will ever knock on my front door.

[razor]

I think what Bluechicken is referring to is if he as a foreign webmaster complies with 2257 (he has no intention of posting illegal content) how will the US DOJ ensure that he is compliant.

In a nutshell , they can't even if you are hosting in the US , selling to US citizens, using US processors and US content - they just don't have any jurisdiction to rock up at your door with warrants and demand to see 2257 docs. Comply with 2257 - however you are unlikely to ever be faced with an inspection.

Even US webmasters are more likely to win the lottery than be faced with an inspection(unless they run a large well known website). Consider the fact that their are 100s of million of adult websites out there - it makes the task of doing inspections quite difficult.

From a practical perspective the DOJ will focus on large well known sites and producers of content (even though reference to primary producer has been removed) - it is the only effective way to ensure that 2257 is complied with and that all modesl are of a legal age - which is what everybody wants anyway.

Please note that I am not advocating that webmasters (US & foreign) say fuck 2257 I'll never be caught ,I am only stating that from an operational point of view 2257 is more onerous for the DOJ than for webmasters.

PS: This is not a legal opinion

[Hammer]

Actually, some of what has been posted in innacurate.

With foreign cooperation, U.S. officials can search and arrest someone if they are using U.S. based companies to do something illegal. It's already happened in Canada recently.

The main issue here is that the U.S. government can put pressure on U.S. hosting companies and processors so they are required to force you to comply with the law, even if you don't live in the U.S.

The bottom line is that if you:

1. live outside the U.S.
2. own a business that is located outside the U.S.
3. host outside the U.S.
4. use a non U.S. based processor

...you are safe. However, if you don't meet all 4 of those requirements, you are not immune.

p.s. I agree that the DOJ is going to primarily target the actual producers and probably the ones with questionable content, but one TGP owner has been inspected.

[bluechicken]

razor, a lot of good stuff you said there.

Originally posted by Hammer

The bottom line is that if you:

1. live outside the U.S.
2. own a business that is located outside the U.S.
3. host outside the U.S.
4. use a non U.S. based processor

Hammer, I want to make this more precise if may:
1. you are a non U.S civilian.
otherwise, once you step foot in the US they can nab you and say you didn't have a 2257 link on your site so you don't comply.

2. the business you own is not only located outside the U.S - it is U.S based and registered is a U.S company.
McDonald's is everywhere is the world but is a company registered in the US (right ?)

3. again we are talking about a non-US based hosting company because as far as I know, if the company is a US based one and just have servers in the UK as well - the gov can force the hosting company to shut the site on the UK servers.

4. is very clear.

did I get it right or did I mix the whole thing up ?

[Hammer]

Your clarification of #3 is correct and important. Sometimes I assume people are smarter than they really are.

The clarification on #1 may not be accurate. I'm not sure it matters whether you are a U.S. citizen living abroad or not and actually it shouldn't matter. Whether you are a U.S. citizen or not does not preclude you from following the laws of the country your reside in.

Unless you misworded what you intended to say, the clarification of #2 doesn't sound right. What I'm saying is that the business must be a non U.S. business. That means if you have a business that is incorporated in the U.S. and you work in a foreign office, you still need to comply with U.S. laws concerning your business.

[bluechicken]

Originally posted by Hammer

Unless you misworded what you intended to say, the clarification of #2 doesn't sound right. What I'm saying is that the business must be a non U.S. business. That means if you have a business that is incorporated in the U.S. and you work in a foreign office, you still need to comply with U.S. laws concerning your business.

yes, I misworded #2, so all is clear.

[Ledrak]

So lets take senario C.... where you have a person who does not reside in the US, but has a US registered business. Obviously, this business would operate entirely outside the US and thus have foreign offices.

So this means that the person in this scenario would be required to comply with US law, but operating out of a foreign office they would not have to worry about inspections from the DOJ?

[Hammer]

Originally posted by Ledrak
So this means that the person in this scenario would be required to comply with US law, but operating out of a foreign office they would not have to worry about inspections from the DOJ?

In theory. Of course, since their business is registered in the U.S., at some point they may want to visit, and at that point, the feds would simply be waiting at the airport.

Assuming they'd broken U.S business laws while they were gone, of course.

[razor]

If you had registered a US corporation why would you then not want to comply with US law? rather register a Russian corporation with all the benefits associated with that.

[Ledrak]

Originally posted by razor
If you had registered a US corporation why would you then not want to comply with US law? rather register a Russian corporation with all the benefits associated with that.

I dont think there's anyone that doesnt want to comply with the law. But inspections are a pain in the ass. Nobody wants to have x number of office hours a day to accommodate a possible DOJ inspection, especially if they operate outside of the US.

And what benefits could there possibly be to registering a Russian corporation; especially in the porn business?

[razor]

My last point was actually a joke - their are no benefits in registering anything in Russia, unlless you want Putin to throw you in jail when you piss him off.

Inspections are more of a pain for the DOJ than for webmasters IMHO.

[Hammer]

I thought the registering in Russia part was quite obviously a joke.

Anyone that already lives and works outside of the U.S. should use a non U.S. based hosting company. If they have their own pay site, they should use a non U.S. based processing company. Otherwise, if you live in the U.S., either learn how to run websites so that 2257 isn't an issue or plan on complying with the law. When I see someone contemplating moving offshore, I immediately suspect them of something.

Frankly, IMO, the only people that should even be worried about 2257 and live in the U.S. are the ones that run their own pay sites. Any webmaster that promotes other people's websites as an affiliate can easily find ways to market those sites with softcore content and avoid the issue altogether.

[xtreme_ballr]

I dont know much about this industry yet but....
The U.S. would do what they do best.

I would just assume that the U.S. people who look for and care about illegal shit on the internet would just 'lean' on the host. It may not be illegal to have child porn or animal sex pictures in...russia for instance but the U.S. would contact the hosting company and local government to put some pressure on them. I think most illegal sites like that are shut down pretty quickly.

[Ledrak]

Yeah, I didn't catch the joke. Sometimes it's hard to catch sarcasm on the internet.

Anyways, I live and work outside the US, but I may very well end up using a US server and processor. I fully plan to comply with the 2257 laws so that's not even an issue. But I certainly wont be keeping a lot of office hours. In fact, I may not even use an office an office at all. If that's the case then I'd have to find someone that will constantly be around to list as my custodian of records, or list my place of residence (which I'm not about to do for obvious reasons).

But if being outside the US means I wouldn't have to worry about DOJ inspections, then I'll just list my office addy for custodian of records, and who cares whether Im there on a regular basis or not.

[Lana]

Recently, here in Vancouver we had a huge uproar about the FBI just coming in here (undercover with no contact with our agencies!!) and arresting a Gulf War deserter with an outstanding marijuana charge and taking him back. Um sovranty?? We'll that was stopped fast. (Oh BTW if you're a war deserter go to Fernie B.C., that's where they all are now. The tradition started in the sixties and there's great skiing there too!)
We're always getting demands from the US government to arbitrarily extradite citizens cross border on suspicion of terrorism without any real proof. We don't do it.
Do the good people at Homeland Security have a pornmeister checklist as well? I don't know, but I doubt it.
Human trafficking and child porn offenders OK, there's a global interpol effort to nab them, but every owner with a website without 2257 in good order? Hmmmm.

[razor]

T thought Vancouver was part of the states

[Lana]

No, but if you could have a country with Americas Style and Pizzazz and our freedoms. THAT - would be one helluva country!